Discussion:
This mailing list is now deprecated
(too old to reply)
Richard Hipp
2018-08-08 12:40:37 UTC
Permalink
The new "forum" feature of Fossil is now live on the self-hosting website:

https://fossil-scm.org/forum

The forum feature is intended as a replacement for mailing lists like
this one. Though still very "beta", I believe in eating ones own
dogfood, and hence I am cutting over to the forum for Fossil itself.

There is a "subscribe" option on the link above where you can sign up
for email notifications to new forum posts. The enhance email
notification should work just like a mailing list, with individual
emails for each forum post containing complete post content and
correct In-Reply-To headers. The only major difference between the
forum and this list is that you must go to the forum website to post
new content. New submissions via email are disallowed as an anti-spam
measure.

The Fossil homepage now has a link to the forum instead of a link to
mailing list sign-up.

Please discontinue use of this mailing list except as an emergency
back-up to the forum in case the forum stops working. If forum is not
working, you can also send email directly to me.

After we have shaken out the forum feature a little further, I will
shut down this legacy mailing list.
--
D. Richard Hipp
***@sqlite.org
Philip Bennefall
2018-08-08 12:47:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Richard,

I am still getting stuck on the registration screen due to the captcha.
What parts do I miss if I don't have an account for now?

Thanks,

Philip
Post by Richard Hipp
https://fossil-scm.org/forum
The forum feature is intended as a replacement for mailing lists like
this one. Though still very "beta", I believe in eating ones own
dogfood, and hence I am cutting over to the forum for Fossil itself.
There is a "subscribe" option on the link above where you can sign up
for email notifications to new forum posts. The enhance email
notification should work just like a mailing list, with individual
emails for each forum post containing complete post content and
correct In-Reply-To headers. The only major difference between the
forum and this list is that you must go to the forum website to post
new content. New submissions via email are disallowed as an anti-spam
measure.
The Fossil homepage now has a link to the forum instead of a link to
mailing list sign-up.
Please discontinue use of this mailing list except as an emergency
back-up to the forum in case the forum stops working. If forum is not
working, you can also send email directly to me.
After we have shaken out the forum feature a little further, I will
shut down this legacy mailing list.
Richard Hipp
2018-08-08 13:10:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Bennefall
I am still getting stuck on the registration screen due to the captcha.
What parts do I miss if I don't have an account for now?
I have added you as a verify subscriber. You should be getting forum
notifications now, without the need to fill in the captcha.
--
D. Richard Hipp
***@sqlite.org
Philip Bennefall
2018-08-08 13:49:43 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, I am getting forum emails just fine now. What I am wondering is,
what do I miss if I don't have a user account? I wanted to subscribe as
a named user "philip_bennefall".


I also have a small suggestion about forum email notifications. In the
From header, it only lists the email address so you cannot see who
wrote the post simply by looking at the From name. The From header and
the subject line is the only information I see in my email client inbox
view so I have to open each message in order to figure out who wrote it.
Normally I make a snap judgement as to whether I will read a message in
a given thread based on the poster, so it would be great if the From
header could say something like:


"username via Fossil forum"


Or something similar. Just a thought.


Thanks,


Philip
Post by Richard Hipp
Post by Philip Bennefall
I am still getting stuck on the registration screen due to the captcha.
What parts do I miss if I don't have an account for now?
I have added you as a verify subscriber. You should be getting forum
notifications now, without the need to fill in the captcha.
joerg van den hoff
2018-08-08 12:54:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Hipp
Please discontinue use of this mailing list except as an emergency
back-up to the forum in case the forum stops working. If forum is not
working, you can also send email directly to me.
well.... no luck here. this:

An email has been sent to "***@gmail.com". That email contains a hyperlink that you must
click on in order to activate your subscription.

simply has not happened so far (>5-10 minutes since subscribe).

br/joerg
Richard Hipp
2018-08-08 13:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by joerg van den hoff
Post by Richard Hipp
Please discontinue use of this mailing list except as an emergency
back-up to the forum in case the forum stops working. If forum is not
working, you can also send email directly to me.
hyperlink that you must
click on in order to activate your subscription.
simply has not happened so far (>5-10 minutes since subscribe).
Check your spam folder?
--
D. Richard Hipp
***@sqlite.org
Pietro Cerutti
2018-08-08 13:24:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Hipp
Post by joerg van den hoff
Post by Richard Hipp
Please discontinue use of this mailing list except as an emergency
back-up to the forum in case the forum stops working. If forum is not
working, you can also send email directly to me.
hyperlink that you must
click on in order to activate your subscription.
simply has not happened so far (>5-10 minutes since subscribe).
Check your spam folder?
It would help (my spam filter to correctly tag them as not-spam) if
emails sent by the forum would have a Mime-Version: 1.0 header and the
charset=us-ascii (or whatever charset a particular post has) parameter
of the Content-Type: text/plain header.

By the way: is charset assumed to be us-ascii? I don't see the body of a
forum post being converted anywhere in forum.c.
--
Pietro Cerutti
Stéphane Aulery
2018-08-08 13:26:25 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
Post by Richard Hipp
https://fossil-scm.org/forum
The forum feature is intended as a replacement for mailing lists like
this one. Though still very "beta", I believe in eating ones own
dogfood, and hence I am cutting over to the forum for Fossil itself.
The Fossil homepage now has a link to the forum instead of a link to
mailing list sign-up.
Please discontinue use of this mailing list except as an emergency
back-up to the forum in case the forum stops working. If forum is not
working, you can also send email directly to me.
Will you import list archives in fossil forum?

Regards,
--
Stéphane Aulery
Gour
2018-08-08 13:32:27 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 08:40:37 -0400
Post by Richard Hipp
Please discontinue use of this mailing list except as an emergency
back-up to the forum in case the forum stops working.
What about devel list?


Sincerely,
Gour
--
Abandoning all attachment to the results of his activities,
ever satisfied and independent, he performs no fruitive action,
although engaged in all kinds of undertakings.
Petr Man
2018-08-08 14:31:08 UTC
Permalink
Hello Richard,

I registered in the forum and the password manager didn't save my
password. I don't see any way of resetting it.

Best,
Petr
Post by Richard Hipp
https://fossil-scm.org/forum
The forum feature is intended as a replacement for mailing lists like
this one. Though still very "beta", I believe in eating ones own
dogfood, and hence I am cutting over to the forum for Fossil itself.
There is a "subscribe" option on the link above where you can sign up
for email notifications to new forum posts. The enhance email
notification should work just like a mailing list, with individual
emails for each forum post containing complete post content and
correct In-Reply-To headers. The only major difference between the
forum and this list is that you must go to the forum website to post
new content. New submissions via email are disallowed as an anti-spam
measure.
The Fossil homepage now has a link to the forum instead of a link to
mailing list sign-up.
Please discontinue use of this mailing list except as an emergency
back-up to the forum in case the forum stops working. If forum is not
working, you can also send email directly to me.
After we have shaken out the forum feature a little further, I will
shut down this legacy mailing list.
--
D. Richard Hipp
_______________________________________________
fossil-users mailing list
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Joseph R. Justice
2018-08-08 16:25:52 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Aug 8, 2018, 10:31 AM Petr Man <***@madnetwork.org> wrote:

I registered in the forum and the password manager didn't save my
Post by Petr Man
password. I don't see any way of resetting it.
I have the same problem. : - (.

Username JayAreJay with the email address I am mailing from here.



Joseph
Andy Bradford
2018-08-08 14:33:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Hipp
New submissions via email are disallowed as an anti-spam
measure.
Will this ever be enabled? I prefer email over web forum posting.

Also, would it be a good idea to subscribe some of the mail archiving
addresses for continuity?

I personally prefer reading archives via:

https://marc.info/?l=fossil-users
https://marc.info/?l=fossil-dev

Thanks,

Andy
--
TAI64 timestamp: 400000005b6aff59
Warren Young
2018-08-08 17:45:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Bradford
Post by Richard Hipp
New submissions via email are disallowed as an anti-spam
measure.
Will this ever be enabled? I prefer email over web forum posting.
How would you prevent spammers from using an email submission mechanism?

Security through obscurity won’t work. I’ve got an email address that got onto the spamners' lists despite only ever being published in a short-run book distributed to about 50 people.

If we don’t solve that problem first, we’ll be right back in much the same mess as today.

Moderation doesn’t help. Someone could weed the current mailing list archives, too. What we want is to bar such things at the gates.
Post by Andy Bradford
https://marc.info/?l=fossil-users
https://marc.info/?l=fossil-dev
Is that just about features? What features do you find essential in the current mailing list archive services over what’s currently presented at fossil-scm.org/forum ?

Keep in mind that Fossil Forums gives us a lot of features we don’t get from third-party mail archive / gateway services:

http://fossil-scm.org/index.html/doc/trunk/www/forum.wiki
Andy Bradford
2018-08-10 13:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Bradford
Will this ever be enabled? I prefer email over web forum posting.
How would you prevent spammers from using an email submission
mechanism?
Most mailing list managers prevent this by only allowing subscribers to
submit emails. I cannot recall the last time I saw spam sent to
I've got an email address that got onto the spamners' lists despite
only ever being published in a short-run book distributed to about 50
people.
If your concern is that email addresses are being harvested, most
mailing list managers have the ability to hide sender email addresses.
Few of the mailing lists I'm subscribed to use this feature, but it does
exist. I believe even Fossil tried to use it once, but the general
feedback was that nobody liked it.

A better solution is for the subscriber to simply use a different email
address for the mailing list---even Gmail supports email aliases.
If we don't solve that problem first, we'll be right back in much the
same mess as today.
Replacing a mailing list with a web forum seems to simply trade one set
of problems for another. I'm on dozens of other public mailing lists
that get a lot more traffic than Fossil Users does and there seems to be
no problems there...

Why don't we leave both in place and see what people prefer to use?
Those who are willing to live with the problems that come with email
will express their preference by continuing to use email.
Moderation doesn't help. Someone could weed the current mailing list
archives, too.
Is the web forum now moderated? Does it help?

Andy
--
TAI64 timestamp: 400000005b6d9114
Warren Young
2018-08-10 14:34:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Bradford
Post by Andy Bradford
Will this ever be enabled? I prefer email over web forum posting.
How would you prevent spammers from using an email submission
mechanism?
Most mailing list managers prevent this by only allowing subscribers to
submit emails. I cannot recall the last time I saw spam sent to
That’s not the problem described in the thread I linked you to:

http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Problems-with-v3-9-0-entry-point-sqlite3-finalize-could-not-be-located-td85005.html#a85069

You only need to read the first post, not the whole thread.

Fossil forums prevent that problem.
Post by Andy Bradford
Gmail supports email aliases.
If you’re speaking of the free Gmail product, it only supports the user+***@example.com style, which fools no spammer. They just strip the +ext bit off.

If you mean G Suite, you only get 30 of them per account. I run the mail server for my personal domains, and I have 240 aliases on my main email account. You want lots of aliases because it allows you to have unique email addresses for any site whose security you are not entirely certain about.

I wish I’d created *more* aliases, in fact, because my real email address gets most of the spam I receive, by far, suggesting that I should have hidden it more often.
Post by Andy Bradford
If we don't solve that problem first, we'll be right back in much the
same mess as today.
Replacing a mailing list with a web forum seems to simply trade one set
of problems for another.
Every choice worth spending thought on has tradeoffs.

drh has made his choice. I don’t think you’re going to sway him on this.
Post by Andy Bradford
I'm on dozens of other public mailing lists
that get a lot more traffic than Fossil Users does and there seems to be
no problems there…
Roughly 80-90% of mail traffic is spam, but that’s not a problem?

https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/q/2175
Post by Andy Bradford
Why don't we leave both in place and see what people prefer to use?
I made that very suggestion earlier.
Post by Andy Bradford
Those who are willing to live with the problems that come with email
will express their preference by continuing to use email.
Some of the burdens fall on drh, rather than on the users of the mailing list, so he has some say in how all of this goes.
Post by Andy Bradford
Is the web forum now moderated?
Yes, from day 1. I am one of the moderators.
Post by Andy Bradford
Does it help?
No spam has made it into the forum blockchain yet.

I also haven’t seen anyone attempt to spam the forum. If it never happens, that’s fine with me.
s***@gmail.com
2018-08-10 17:35:15 UTC
Permalink
Whoa, I still receive spam from this mail list. :(
While hard to track, I cannot say the same with the forums I use.
Of course, forums can be hacked and emails exposed, but that is rare and
targeting richer bounty.
The fossil forum is a click away. If you resist, then write a crawler to
retrieve the forum posts you desire.
Or the forum can push changes to a subscriber.
I prefer to leave them in the forum.
Post by Warren Young
Post by Andy Bradford
Post by Andy Bradford
Will this ever be enabled? I prefer email over web forum posting.
How would you prevent spammers from using an email submission
mechanism?
Most mailing list managers prevent this by only allowing subscribers to
submit emails. I cannot recall the last time I saw spam sent to
http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Problems-with-v3-9-
0-entry-point-sqlite3-finalize-could-not-be-located-td85005.html#a85069
You only need to read the first post, not the whole thread.
Fossil forums prevent that problem.
Post by Andy Bradford
Gmail supports email aliases.
If you’re speaking of the free Gmail product, it only supports the
+ext bit off.
If you mean G Suite, you only get 30 of them per account. I run the mail
server for my personal domains, and I have 240 aliases on my main email
account. You want lots of aliases because it allows you to have unique
email addresses for any site whose security you are not entirely certain
about.
I wish I’d created *more* aliases, in fact, because my real email address
gets most of the spam I receive, by far, suggesting that I should have
hidden it more often.
Post by Andy Bradford
If we don't solve that problem first, we'll be right back in much the
same mess as today.
Replacing a mailing list with a web forum seems to simply trade one set
of problems for another.
Every choice worth spending thought on has tradeoffs.
drh has made his choice. I don’t think you’re going to sway him on this.
Post by Andy Bradford
I'm on dozens of other public mailing lists
that get a lot more traffic than Fossil Users does and there seems to be
no problems there

Roughly 80-90% of mail traffic is spam, but that’s not a problem?
https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/q/2175
Post by Andy Bradford
Why don't we leave both in place and see what people prefer to use?
I made that very suggestion earlier.
Post by Andy Bradford
Those who are willing to live with the problems that come with email
will express their preference by continuing to use email.
Some of the burdens fall on drh, rather than on the users of the mailing
list, so he has some say in how all of this goes.
Post by Andy Bradford
Is the web forum now moderated?
Yes, from day 1. I am one of the moderators.
Post by Andy Bradford
Does it help?
No spam has made it into the forum blockchain yet.
I also haven’t seen anyone attempt to spam the forum. If it never
happens, that’s fine with me.
_______________________________________________
fossil-users mailing list
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
s***@gmail.com
2018-08-10 20:10:02 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, I re-checked my spam folder and the last one arrived Jul-24.
Post by s***@gmail.com
Whoa, I still receive spam from this mail list. :(
While hard to track, I cannot say the same with the forums I use.
Of course, forums can be hacked and emails exposed, but that is rare and
targeting richer bounty.
The fossil forum is a click away. If you resist, then write a crawler to
retrieve the forum posts you desire.
Or the forum can push changes to a subscriber.
I prefer to leave them in the forum.
Post by Warren Young
Post by Andy Bradford
Post by Andy Bradford
Will this ever be enabled? I prefer email over web forum posting.
How would you prevent spammers from using an email submission
mechanism?
Most mailing list managers prevent this by only allowing subscribers to
submit emails. I cannot recall the last time I saw spam sent to
http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Problems-with-v3-9-0-
entry-point-sqlite3-finalize-could-not-be-located-td85005.html#a85069
You only need to read the first post, not the whole thread.
Fossil forums prevent that problem.
Post by Andy Bradford
Gmail supports email aliases.
If you’re speaking of the free Gmail product, it only supports the
+ext bit off.
If you mean G Suite, you only get 30 of them per account. I run the mail
server for my personal domains, and I have 240 aliases on my main email
account. You want lots of aliases because it allows you to have unique
email addresses for any site whose security you are not entirely certain
about.
I wish I’d created *more* aliases, in fact, because my real email address
gets most of the spam I receive, by far, suggesting that I should have
hidden it more often.
Post by Andy Bradford
If we don't solve that problem first, we'll be right back in much the
same mess as today.
Replacing a mailing list with a web forum seems to simply trade one set
of problems for another.
Every choice worth spending thought on has tradeoffs.
drh has made his choice. I don’t think you’re going to sway him on this.
Post by Andy Bradford
I'm on dozens of other public mailing lists
that get a lot more traffic than Fossil Users does and there seems to be
no problems there

Roughly 80-90% of mail traffic is spam, but that’s not a problem?
https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/q/2175
Post by Andy Bradford
Why don't we leave both in place and see what people prefer to use?
I made that very suggestion earlier.
Post by Andy Bradford
Those who are willing to live with the problems that come with email
will express their preference by continuing to use email.
Some of the burdens fall on drh, rather than on the users of the mailing
list, so he has some say in how all of this goes.
Post by Andy Bradford
Is the web forum now moderated?
Yes, from day 1. I am one of the moderators.
Post by Andy Bradford
Does it help?
No spam has made it into the forum blockchain yet.
I also haven’t seen anyone attempt to spam the forum. If it never
happens, that’s fine with me.
_______________________________________________
fossil-users mailing list
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Andy Bradford
2018-08-11 17:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Whoa, I still receive spam from this mail list. :(
Correction: You received spam from spammers. The mailing list has yet to
deliver spam as far as I can tell.

I believe what you mean is that your email address that you use on this
mailing list has been harvested by spammers and that they are contacting
you directly.

That can be easily thwarted by simply setting your From address to be an
invalid address, much like Will Parsons does:

From: Will Parsons <***@nodomain.invalid>
To: fossil-***@lists.fossil-scm.org
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 19:49:27 -0400 (17:49 MDT)
Subject: Re: [fossil-users] This mailing list is now deprecated

I wasn't aware that fossil-users actually allowed using a different From
header than is in the Envelope From or I would have been doing this ages
ago.

Andy
--
TAI64 timestamp: 400000005b6f1ea9
Warren Young
2018-08-11 18:19:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Bradford
The mailing list has yet to
deliver spam as far as I can tell.
I’d have a hard time proving it, since I delete such things from my local archive, and I wouldn’t be surprised if many of the public archives have their own inbound spam filtering, too.

But, I’m pretty sure I do remember a few incidents of this. The mailing list admin then has to go in and manually boot the user out, and probably add filtering to prevent that email address from re-joining the list. That probably falls on drh’s shoulders.

Certainly there’s no reason in principle this could not happen.

As long as the Fossil forum moderators are paying attention, it *can’t* happen with Fossil forums.
Post by Andy Bradford
I believe what you mean is that your email address that you use on this
mailing list has been harvested by spammers and that they are contacting
you directly.
Fossil does not expose the email address of its users.

The /forum repository on fossil-scm.org currently doesn’t even allow you to clone the repository, and even if it did, you wouldn’t get a copy of the user table without high-level privileges that won’t be handed out to anyone who isn’t already trusted.
Post by Andy Bradford
That can be easily thwarted by simply setting your From address to be an
invalid address
“Easily”? Either:

1. On every post, you manually edit the “From” address in your MUA to something invalid. Yes, it’s just a drop-down selection in modern MUAs, but it’s an extra step on each and every posting.

2. You reconfigure your mailer to always use the invalid address by default, and then have to remember to fix it on every email reply where you’d actually like to receive a reply.

3. Set up some kind of smart filtering system (procmail, etc.) to do this based on the destination address for each email.

All three options fall outside the scope of “easily,” in my book.

Maybe you have an easier option?
Warren Young
2018-08-11 19:07:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Warren Young
The /forum repository on fossil-scm.org currently doesn’t even allow you to clone the repository
I’m misremembering. See https://fossil-scm.org/forum/forumpost/db505ad4af
Andy Bradford
2018-08-11 18:01:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Warren Young
http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Problems-with-v3-9-0-entry-point-sqlite3-finalize-could-not-be-located-td85005.html#a85069
You only need to read the first post, not the whole thread.
Fossil forums prevent that problem.
Throwing a rock through an 747's window is one way to solve the problem
of getting a plane to drop in altitude, but that doesn't mean it's the
best way.

The problem described on that link is about spammers subscribing to the
mailing lists and then sending automated spam to those who post to the
mailing list.

We've discussed this before on this mailing list and some suggestions
were made, and I guess this new forum feature was easier to implement,
even if it does make communication less useful.

Oddly enough, I haven't seen much of the spam that people are
complaining about lately---maybe that means my spam blocking is getting
it, or maybe it means the spammers have left?

Andy
--
TAI64 timestamp: 400000005b6f2492
s***@gmail.com
2018-08-11 18:06:21 UTC
Permalink
Doh! Didn't know you could submit a dummy email.
Even though mail is deprecated, are we still able to change settings?

http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/options/fossil-users

I asked for my password and no reply?

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 2:01 PM, Andy Bradford <
Post by Warren Young
Post by Warren Young
http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Problems-with-v3-9-
0-entry-point-sqlite3-finalize-could-not-be-located-td85005.html#a85069
Post by Warren Young
You only need to read the first post, not the whole thread.
Fossil forums prevent that problem.
Throwing a rock through an 747's window is one way to solve the problem
of getting a plane to drop in altitude, but that doesn't mean it's the
best way.
The problem described on that link is about spammers subscribing to the
mailing lists and then sending automated spam to those who post to the
mailing list.
We've discussed this before on this mailing list and some suggestions
were made, and I guess this new forum feature was easier to implement,
even if it does make communication less useful.
Oddly enough, I haven't seen much of the spam that people are
complaining about lately---maybe that means my spam blocking is getting
it, or maybe it means the spammers have left?
Andy
--
TAI64 timestamp: 400000005b6f2492
_______________________________________________
fossil-users mailing list
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
s***@gmail.com
2018-08-11 18:13:19 UTC
Permalink
Ok, obscured my email, but that cat has been out of the bag for years :(
Post by s***@gmail.com
Doh! Didn't know you could submit a dummy email.
Even though mail is deprecated, are we still able to change settings?
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/options/fossil-users
I asked for my password and no reply?
On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 2:01 PM, Andy Bradford <amb-sendok-1536602477.
Post by Warren Young
Post by Warren Young
http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Problems-with-v3-9-0-
entry-point-sqlite3-finalize-could-not-be-located-td85005.html#a85069
Post by Warren Young
You only need to read the first post, not the whole thread.
Fossil forums prevent that problem.
Throwing a rock through an 747's window is one way to solve the problem
of getting a plane to drop in altitude, but that doesn't mean it's the
best way.
The problem described on that link is about spammers subscribing to the
mailing lists and then sending automated spam to those who post to the
mailing list.
We've discussed this before on this mailing list and some suggestions
were made, and I guess this new forum feature was easier to implement,
even if it does make communication less useful.
Oddly enough, I haven't seen much of the spam that people are
complaining about lately---maybe that means my spam blocking is getting
it, or maybe it means the spammers have left?
Andy
--
TAI64 timestamp: 400000005b6f2492
_______________________________________________
fossil-users mailing list
http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Warren Young
2018-08-11 18:34:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Bradford
Throwing a rock through an 747's window is one way to solve the problem
of getting a plane to drop in altitude, but that doesn't mean it's the
best way.
Why is that a good analogy for what’s been done here?

I’d say your analogy is exactly backwards: we’ve got people throwing rocks at our plane to make it drop in altitude, and we can’t prevent them from doing so, so instead we’ve redesigned the plane to make it impervious to thrown rocks.
Post by Andy Bradford
The problem described on that link is about spammers subscribing to the
mailing lists and then sending automated spam to those who post to the
mailing list.
Yes, and that can’t happen with Fossil forums.
Post by Andy Bradford
I guess this new forum feature was easier to implement,
The Fossil forum feature is inherently valuable, so you can’t charge the effort spent on it against the current spam problems. Two of my own public Fossil-based projects will be adopting it soon.

With that cost externalized, the question then becomes whether it’s easier to use Fossil’s new forum moderation features or to keep fighting the spammers one-on-one. Since part of that cost is also externalized — i.e. by drh making me a moderator — it seems likely that the new method will mean less overall work for drh.

That in turn means we either get more improvements in Fossil and SQLite, or drh gets time to do things he’d rather be doing than fighting spammers. That sounds like a good thing to me.
Post by Andy Bradford
even if it does make communication less useful.
The Fossil forum has been quite busy over the past few days. Most of the discussion is about the forums themselves, rather than general-interest Fossil topics, but that’s normal for a big new feature set.

It doesn’t seem that the new method is materially less useful than the old.
Will Parsons
2018-08-08 23:49:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Hipp
https://fossil-scm.org/forum
The forum feature is intended as a replacement for mailing lists like
this one. Though still very "beta", I believe in eating ones own
dogfood, and hence I am cutting over to the forum for Fossil itself.
There is a "subscribe" option on the link above where you can sign up
for email notifications to new forum posts. The enhance email
notification should work just like a mailing list, with individual
emails for each forum post containing complete post content and
correct In-Reply-To headers. The only major difference between the
forum and this list is that you must go to the forum website to post
new content. New submissions via email are disallowed as an anti-spam
measure.
The Fossil homepage now has a link to the forum instead of a link to
mailing list sign-up.
Please discontinue use of this mailing list except as an emergency
back-up to the forum in case the forum stops working. If forum is not
working, you can also send email directly to me.
After we have shaken out the forum feature a little further, I will
shut down this legacy mailing list.
I know I'm far too late to roll back a _fait accompli_, but I am
disappointed that now I shall have to use a (expletive deleted) web
forum to post comments. Please don't let this happen to the SQLite
mail list also. (FYI, I have been using Gmane to read and post to
both the Fossil and SQLite mailing lists.)
--
Will
Warren Young
2018-08-09 02:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Parsons
I am
disappointed that now I shall have to use a (expletive deleted) web
forum to post comments...I have been using Gmane to read and post to
both the Fossil and SQLite mailing lists.
I’ve always thought of Gmane as just another web front end for mailing list archives, but I now see that they allow NNTP posting. May I then rephrase your complaint as “NNTP good, HTTP POST bad?”

On Gmane’s About page, we find this: "Gmane is not an unproblematic project…Gmane makes it much easier for spam harvesters to gather these real, authentic mail addresses.” So, Gmane is part of the problems that originally motivated the creation of and move to Fossil forums!
Post by Will Parsons
Please don't let this happen to the SQLite
mail list also.
I believe the only question is “when,” not “whether:”

http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Mailing-list-shutting-down-td102466.html

This change is happening as a result of list spam problems going back to October 2015 at least:

http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Problems-with-v3-9-0-entry-point-sqlite3-finalize-could-not-be-located-tp85005p85069.html

I’ve gotten such spam here at work as recently as July 11, and our corporate email is handled by a mail service that’s *very* aggressive about dropping such emails before they even get to us. My home email server gets a lot more of it.

I remember a time when an X Window server would allow any other computer on the LAN to pop up a window on your computer. There was a program that marched an Energizer bunny across the bottom of all computers in the lab, with no special permission or background program needed on each computer to allow it. The program just started sending pixels to each machine in turn, and the X server dutifully displayed the graphics as requested.

We don’t live in that world any more. Spammers and other malefactors took our civilized Internet and ruined it for the rest of us.

Expletives indeed, but that solves nothing. Fossil forums should be an effective solution to this real problem, and they give many benefits to us besides:

https://fossil-scm.org/index.html/doc/trunk/www/forum.wiki
Aslak Raanes
2018-08-09 08:12:13 UTC
Permalink
On Gmane’s About page, we find this: "Gmane is not an unproblematic project
Gmane makes it much easier for spam harvesters to gather these real, authentic mail addresses.” So, Gmane is part of the problems that originally motivated the creation of and move to Fossil forums!
For the fossil-users mailing list Gmane via nntp only exposes mail addresses as:

Warren Young <warren-***@public.gmane.org>

Something similiar might be a solution for fossil-forum public export function?
--
Aslak Raanes
<https://ntnu.no/ansatte/aslakr>
Warren Young
2018-08-09 08:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Warren Young
On Gmane’s About page, we find this: "Gmane is not an unproblematic project…Gmane makes it much easier for spam harvesters to gather these real, authentic mail addresses.” So, Gmane is part of the problems that originally motivated the creation of and move to Fossil forums!
And here are the next two sentences on that same Gmane About page:

“Even though the Gmane web interface to the news spool obfuscates all addresses, a spam harvesting bot just has to point itself to the news interface to slurp down the entire spool. And there's not much I can do to stop that from happening.”

It stems from the fact that Gmane requires that you use a legitimate email address as a user name on their service.
Pierpaolo Bernardi
2018-08-09 07:54:58 UTC
Permalink
Could the mailing lists be kept at least for announcements from the developers?

Pretty please?
Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
2018-08-10 02:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I can not login after registering myself. I got the registration email,
follow the link, but now I'm trying to login without success. I can't
find an option for recovering or changing an old password.

Cheers,

Offray
Post by Richard Hipp
https://fossil-scm.org/forum
The forum feature is intended as a replacement for mailing lists like
this one. Though still very "beta", I believe in eating ones own
dogfood, and hence I am cutting over to the forum for Fossil itself.
There is a "subscribe" option on the link above where you can sign up
for email notifications to new forum posts. The enhance email
notification should work just like a mailing list, with individual
emails for each forum post containing complete post content and
correct In-Reply-To headers. The only major difference between the
forum and this list is that you must go to the forum website to post
new content. New submissions via email are disallowed as an anti-spam
measure.
The Fossil homepage now has a link to the forum instead of a link to
mailing list sign-up.
Please discontinue use of this mailing list except as an emergency
back-up to the forum in case the forum stops working. If forum is not
working, you can also send email directly to me.
After we have shaken out the forum feature a little further, I will
shut down this legacy mailing list.
Warren Young
2018-08-10 03:26:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
I can not login after registering myself.
Are you perhaps putting your email address in the user name field? It only accepts user names, for now at least.
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